Episode 3.8
– For the first two episodes of Ghost Kiss I drew all the pages on my computer using my cintiq drawing stylus and a program called Sai. I like teh way those pages turned out, but the process took forever. I’m pretty slow anyway, but drawing digitally just slows me down even more. And unlike most mainstream comics which are produced by a small team of people, I do EVERYTHING on each episode of Ghost Kiss, including penciling, inking, coloring, lettering and writing. So for this issue I decided to draw and ink each page by hand on bristol board using blue pencils and markers. While I still colored and lettered each page on my computer, drawing by hand really sped up the process!
– Did you know that Ghost Kiss appears in every issue of Combine? Combine is science fiction comic magazine featuring three ongoing stories, including Ghost Kiss! You can subscribe to Combine and have new issues mailed directly to you! If you prefer to read your comics on paper as a magazine please check out Combine! Find out more here!
Is Mya supposed to come across as an unlikable person here? Because she’s sounding worse than those feminists that want to censor the internet, or have a man arrested for disagreeing with them.
I don’t think so. She’s upset about being harassed by someone.
Can you call it harassment? I’m not sure this qualifies.
Also, conspiracy to commit an assault is pretty radical O_o
Online harassment is explicitly harassment. That said, the whole point of this episode was whether or not Mya’s response was warranted. It’s one thing to be angry about harassment, and this kind of harassment is notoriously hard to respond to (reporting is almost never a workable solution, since perpetrators can always just create a new account). Mya is furious here at first, but I don’t believe that she actually would have traveled to this person and assaulted them (although she might have punched them if they were standing right in front of her). Admin’s solution is much more extreme, and even Mya (who is upset and angry) questions it. This might not be super apparent yet, but all superpowers in this series are invasive. They take something from someone or inflict something on someone. Whether it’s getting squirted in the face with crab juice or having your memories stolen and rearranged. It’s all disturbing stuff. So the question is whether it’s right to use these powers on other people, and if it is, what are the circumstances when this is acceptable? Thats what this episode is about. is it okay to take away someones ability to post on the internet because they’re harassing other people and being abusive? Thats a tough question. I only had a few pages to explore it, but I tried to make sure that Mya spent time thinking about it. And she does ponder it for a full page and a half, which is half the in-story time she even new about the power.
“Online harassment is explicitly harassment.”
Which is what the “block” feature was made for.
“Mya is furious here at first, but I don’t believe that she actually would have traveled to this person and assaulted them (although she might have punched them if they were standing right in front of her).”
That’s completely irrational. She’s supposed to be this strong character, yeah? But you’re telling me she’s the type to easily fly off the handle and hurt someone if her fragile feelings are hurt? Doesn’t sound like a very tough person to me.
” is it okay to take away someones ability to post on the internet because they’re harassing other people and being abusive?”
Short answer: no. It’s never okay to do that, simply because you don’t agree with someone else is saying.
“but I tried to make sure that Mya spent time thinking about it.”
Which makes her even more deplorable. If it were a fit of rage, a crime of passion, then this could be written off as a moment of weakness. Rather, this is internet-murder in the first degree.
– You should be aware that the block feature is hardly ever a solution. Especially against committed harassers it just doesn’t work. It’s very easy for harassers to create a new account. Even if blocking were a reliable solution, it doesn’t save you from anything other than further harassment. You were still harassed. You still had to deal with that. You were still victimized. That kind of harassment may not have the same effect on everyone, but that doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable or that victims should just be told to block it and get over it.
– I’ve never claimed Mya was a strong character (as far as I can remember), and we’ve only known her for about 33 pages, so thats not much time to form an opinion. But I don’t think being upset or even enraged about ongoing sexist harassment is an indication that she isn’t tough or that she’s fragile or irrational. I think being upset and angry of harassment is a fairly natural and understandable response.
– I agree that it’s not okay to take away a capability from someone. As I said before, that was the central question of this story. We don’t have the right to take life, liberty, capability or health from other people. But the central premise of superheros as a genre is that superheroes have decided that they can take away life, liberty, capability or health (and often all four) from people they believe have done wrong. Sometimes in accordance with the law, but often despite what the law says. Is it okay to hit someone if they have broken the law? No, it isn’t. It’s not Batman, Daredevil or any other superhero’s place to go around beating lawbreakers. For any number of reasons, but especially because we’ve agreed that this isn’t how society works. We have law enforcement agencies for that. But in superhero stories we give that kind of behavior a pass. Batman can beat up, and even cripple, people. The Punisher and Wolverine can kill people. Superman can imprison people. For crimes ranging from drug dealing to assault to corporate scale mass pollution to war crimes. We give all of this a pass, because it’s a built in part of the superhero genre.
Online harassment is a real problem. It’s a problem that millions of people deal with every day. It’s a problem that has almost no legal recourse. It’s a problem that’s almost impossible to defend against. It’s a activity that perpetrators get away with because the internet allows them to be anonymous. It’s an activity perpetrators get away with because, for the most part, no one but the victim cares. But it’s not okay. Harassment is never acceptable, and saying that the victim is just having their “fragile feelings hurt” is dismissive and reductive. I agree that choosing to take away a person’s capability is never okay, but if you’re presumably willing to give other superheros a pass on dishing out vigilante justice in the form of beatings that often leave people dead or crippled or imprisonments that last for life, I’m not sure why a non-violent punishment for a person who is clearly continuing to harass multiple people is such a stand out for you. Or are you writing letters to DC every time Blue Beetle breaks a drug dealers arm?
– This is clearly a sore issue for you. What do you feel like would be an appropriate response and punishment from a superhero/vigilante for someone who had been repeatably harassing both them and others? I’m guessing you think blocking is good enough. You do realize that blocking doesn’t solve the problem, right? Even in the rare cases that blocking saves the victim from further harassment, it doesn’t keep the harasser from moving on to other victims. It’s also neither a punishment or a detriment. But I’m guessing, based on your comments, that you don’t really see this kind of harassment as an issue at all. For one thing, you characterize the harassment as just someone “being a jerk” and Mya having her “Fragile feelings hurt”. Earlier you question if the behavior could even be called harassment at all. Let me be very clear. I feel like this kind of online harassment, sexual, sexist or otherwise (but especially sexual and sexist) is a huge problem and should absolutely not be dismissed, excused or diminished. If you’re not aware of it as a problem, please let this be your introduction. If you disagree that it is a problem, please reconsider your stance and try to imagine how this kind of harassment hurts the victim and leaves them with very little recourse except to block the perpetrator and hope that it doesn’t happen again.
So no, it’s not acceptable to take away someone’s posting ability. But superheros are an outlet for our unacceptable impulses in regards to justice, both social and otherwise. It’s definitely, 100% unacceptable to harass people online, and that’s something that goes completely unpunished in our society. So this is a fantasy story about punishing unpunished crimes. Like every superhero story.
“It’s very easy for harassers to create a new account.”
Good thing it’s easy to block that, too.
“Even if blocking were a reliable solution, it doesn’t save you from anything other than further harassment. You were still harassed. You still had to deal with that.”
I believe that’s what’s called “being an adult.” Heck, what many consider to be “harassment” nowadays is someone disagreeing with someone else’s opinion and the person holding the opinion has their feelings hurt.
“I’ve never claimed Mya was a strong character…”
Never said you made that claim. I’m calling her out on being weak.
“It’s not Batman, Daredevil or any other superhero’s place to go around beating lawbreakers.”
Which is precisely why I despise Batman as a character. He engages in torture, vigilantism, illegal covert surveillance, and apathy. Apathy in that he arranges for criminals to avoid justice by enabling a corrupt justice system.
Which is why Captain America came off as a HUGE jerk in Civil War. He rejects all authority that doesn’t come from himself and expects to be able to act care blanche. “Who watches the Watchmen?”
I give Spider-Man a free pass since he’s just a high school kid trying to make by with what he’s got.
But I digress.
“What do you feel like would be an appropriate response and punishment from a superhero/vigilante…?”
For someone who wants to protect her identity so badly, Mya sure enjoys bringing attention to herself, doesn’t she? My armchair psychology, for what little is worth, is that she’s so alone, and so desperate for someone to see her, to remember her, that she’s doing something completely insane. She’s putting on a skimpy costume and throwing herself in potentially lethal situations.
The Crabs is a bad example, as he’s just some low grade menace the cops could’ve taken care of. Though they have a little in common: they both crave attention.
Remember how she unprofessionally posed with that cop? She was very proud of that pose and posted it online for all to see. But the one, singular, negative comment that comes back on it causes her to flip out and plot violence against someone. It wasn’t just a moment of anger, either. She plotted for a while to find this guy, who may very well be a child, and bring physical harm to him.
If she actually cared about helping others, she’d hang up the tights, and get a job in law enforcement or search and rescue.
She should delete any social media she has on Ghost Kiss.
That’s what I did. Boxed up the cape, and covered my trail.
But she’s not going to. Heck, now that she’s ruined one man’s life, why not do it again? And again. And again. She already felt justified doing it the first time, right?
“this is a fantasy story about punishing unpunished crimes.”
No crime was committed.
I mentioned before I’m hooked. I want to see Ghost Kiss get her comeuppance, so I’m definitely tuning in for the next. But I have a feeling this is going to stoop to the Sabrina the Teenage Witch formula. Girl has power, and uses power to solve mundane problem. Finds out there’s a dire consequence, and has to learn to solve the problem in a mundane fashion.
But I hope to be surprised ^3^
– Again, blocking is rarely a solution. It doesn’t keep persistent harassment from happening, it just adds an extra step for both the harasser and the victim. Sometimes that step is enough to dissuade the harasser, but in the case of persistent and aggressive harassment it usually isn’t.
– Gray, let me be super clear here. We’re not talking about a disagreement or having different opinions. We’re talking about blatant and persistent sexually themed harassment. I’m not sure why you’re trying to paint this as something else. This isn’t a case where the victim needs to just “be an adult”. Do you not understand what harassment is or how it works? Harassment is not okay. It’s not something that should be allowed. It’s not something that should be tolerated.It’s not okay to simply tell the victim that they need t be an adult or give the harasser a pass because “all they’re doing is hurting someone’s feelings”. That’s not all they’re doing. Choosing to consistently harass someone is a form of abuse. It’s totally unacceptable.
It’s not called “being an adult”. Adults shouldn’t have to deal with being harassed. No one should.
– I don’t think Mya is a weak character. I don’t think being angry over harassment makes you weak. I don’t think choosing to punish someone for harassing you makes you weak. That doesn’t mean that she was right (or wrong), and she may have chose the wrong punishment, but that doesn’t make her weak. I think harassing people is weak. I think defending harassment is weak.
– It’s fine to despise Batman as a character. My point was that the nature of superhero comics is that superheros take the law into their own hands and dispense justice as they see fit. If you don’t like that premise, thats fine, but Mya’s actions fit squarely into that premise.
– Your armchair psychology is… pretty misogynistic. Are you aware of that? Maybe Mya does like to draw attention to herself? So what? Why is that a bad thing? Maybe Mya wears a skimpy costume (I’d disagree. It’s the exact same outfit that competitive weight lifters wear)? So what? Why is that a bad thing? Why is posing with a cop unprofessional? It’s not. Lots of people take photos with cops. There’s nothing wrong with it, even if it’s a sexy photo. It’s literally not a problem for anyone. Why is it bad for Mya to be proud of teh photo or to post it online? What could possibly be wrong with that? Yes, a comment made Mya angry. It wasn’t a singular comment. It was the latest comment in a string of harassment. that was very clear (and I think you’ve purposely chose to ignore that). Mya was very angry. I think understandably so. No, I don’t think she was plotting to attack or assault anyone. As I said before, she might have punched the person if he had appeared in front of her at that moment, but I don’t think she was really planning to seek him out and hurt him. She was angry and venting, and I think that was pretty clear.
If she actually cared about helping others she’d hang up her tights and get another job? Really? in teh first issue she saved teh city from a giant robot. Thats not something you can do in search and rescue. It seems incredibly disingenuous to say that she’s not helping people and that she should get another job.
She should delete any social media she uses as Ghost Kiss? Why? Why can’t she use social media?
You keep saying that she ruined this guys life. Probably not. Probably he’ll be very frustrated. Probably he’ll have some difficulties. His life isn’t ruined. It isn’t great, certainly. Having your ability to post on the internet taken away would be awful. It wouldn’t ruin your life (although it may make it significantly more difficult. Would it surprise you to know that about 1/3 of the people in the United states don’t have access to the internet? They get along. They’re lives aren’t ruined. Not being able to post online isn’t a life ruining disadvantage.
I noticed you didn’t answer my question at all. I asked “What do you feel like would be an appropriate response and punishment from a superhero/vigilante…?”. You answered by saying that Mya should stop using social media, get a different job and stop wearing skimpy clothing. Thats a fucked up answer. Seriously man, what the fuck?
– You keep pointing to the harasser as the victim here, but have zero sympathy for the person he’s harassing (and in fact, won’t even acknowledge that it is harassment). I couldn’t tell you if online harassment is a crime. I think it’s very obviously immoral and malicious and very obviously done with the intent to harm someone and make the world a worse place. I can understand not liking the punishment. that was the point of the story. Call it “superhero makes a bad choice”. But how can you possibly be on the side of the harasser?
– While I said before that one of the themes of this comic is that superpowers are invasive and uncomfortable, if you’re waiting for Mya to her her comeuppance over sixths specific incident you’ll be disappointed.
“Again, blocking is rarely a solution…”
You might have a point, but it’s only lampshaded in the story.
“This isn’t a case where the victim needs to just “be an adult”. Do you not understand what harassment is or how it works?”
Yes, I do understand, and I’m disagreeing with you.
“I don’t think choosing to punish someone for harassing you makes you weak.”
It does when you have no authority to do so. It does when you start plotting violence against someone, which she did.
“Your armchair psychology is… pretty misogynistic”
Pardon? At no point did I say she does the things she does because she’s a woman, and that all women do this because they are women. That would be misogynistic. No, I’m saying this because there is a culture of people who dress up as superheroes, and go out at night to “fight crime” or do homeless outreach (the latter being far more noble). It’s a culture I’m very familiar with, and I’m recognizing certain traits in Ghost Kiss that are very similar with individuals that do these sorts of thing.
Jake, I feel you’re deliberately misunderstanding me.
” It was the latest comment in a string of harassment. that was very clear (and I think you’ve purposely chose to ignore that).”
I’m not ignoring it, I’m just not impressed with it.
“If she actually cared about helping others she’d hang up her tights and get another job? Really? in teh first issue she saved teh city from a giant robot. Thats not something you can do in search and rescue. It seems incredibly disingenuous to say that she’s not helping people and that she should get another job.”
Then she’ll be the first person I’ll call for giant robots with anti-superpower shields. But besides that, I don’t get why she doesn’t have a job as a cop or in rescue.
How a giant robot even gets developed and employed so close to city limits without drawing attention to NSA, CIA, or ATF is mind-boggling on its own @_@
“She should delete any social media she uses as Ghost Kiss? Why? Why can’t she use social media?”
Being a superhero would naturally mean drawing attention to yourself, but if you choose to draw attention to yourself you should be prepared to accept that some of this attention will be negative. Mya’s been given the opportunity to control others via Admin’s mind control powers.
I can’t imagine Spider-Man ever using Admin’s powers on Jonah. Heck, Peter sees any bad press as good press, since it helps him pay for Aunt May’s rent and medical bills.
“You keep saying that she ruined this guys life. Probably not.”
You’re the writer, thus you have narrative omniscience. Maybe it’s not a kid who can no longer apply for classes. Maybe he’s not a web artist who can no longer sell his wares online. But the whole thing reminds me of a recent case. (Your story may be more topical than you realize.)
Gregory Allan Elliot was arrested for disagreeing with a couple of feminists online. He was put in jail, but released on bail. The judge prohibited his access to the internet, despite being an artist and the internet being his primary income source.
He was eventually found “not guilty” of all charges, and internet privileges restored, but it frightens me to think that if Anita, Quinn, and Wu had their way, anyone could be arrested for publicly disagreeing with their ideology.
“I noticed you didn’t answer my question at all. I asked “What do you feel like would be an appropriate response and punishment from a superhero/vigilante…?”. You answered by saying that Mya should stop using social media, get a different job and stop wearing skimpy clothing. Thats a fucked up answer. Seriously man, what the fuck?”
I’ll be more clear then: the appropriate response for any superhero or vigilante in any situation is to not be a superhero or vigilante. Being a vigilante is a crime, and being a superhero doesn’t help as much as one might think. Sure, you raise some money for some charities, but there are better ways of going about it.
“But how can you possibly be on the side of the harasser?”
I’m not. I’m on the side of justice, and of righteousness. This is a topical, controversial subject, and I am of the opinion that the internet should not be censored by any form of government. And in the context of this story, it should not be dictated over by Admin and Mya.
“– While I said before that one of the themes of this comic is that superpowers are invasive and uncomfortable, if you’re waiting for Mya to her her comeuppance over sixths specific incident you’ll be disappointed.”
Then this is where I stop reading ^_^;
Thats fine. I think we’re done. I won’t stop you from posting here anymore (I always approve comments unless they are spam) but I’m going to decline to answer any more of your posts. I don’t have the energy or time to argue with you anymore. And no, I’m not deliberately misunderstanding you. As far as I can see your comments are misogynistic. You may not agree with that, but I’d invite you to review your comments with an impartial mind. Your views on online harassment also make me extremely uncomfortable.
Thanks for taking all that seriously, Jake
Definitely don’t blame Mya for feeling that way and venting.
Hi, I only posted once before here like 10 days ago, on a comic later than this, to someone that said: “Dude bro, as a white, straight, adult male, I just want to say that you are reprobate” to A Gray Phantom by saying “Dude bro, as an asian gay adult male, I just want to say that you are an idiot who thinks crying “sexism!” to a valid argument is a good reply.”
I was just reading old comments and came across you doing the basically the same thing. I do think Gray Phantom is reaching by saying that Mya wants attention and she could do better by becoming a cop or whatever, but I disagree that he was misogynistic, and I do agree with much of what he says.
You know, as a gay asian immigrant male (I swear I don’t introduce myself to strangers this way) who speaks with an accent in Canada, I didn’t have an easy time during high school. I’m not going to lie, years later, every few days, whenever memories during high school come up, I fantasize about doing horrible things to my tormentors. It’s been years and it won’t go away and I’m not sure if it ever will.
As someone who’s been around forums for years, I also got in some stupid internet fights. One time, a guy got so mad, he stalked me through multiple accounts (I used same user names in multiple sites back then) sending me harassing messages, and created new accounts for when I blocked him.
I pointed out to him that it took me 2 seconds to block him once while it took so much longer to create accounts and send me messages. After that every time, I just replied “lol” then blocked him. After a few days it stopped. Even if it didn’t, I could have done that forever.
It was annoying, somewhat amusing. People comparing “cyber harassment” like that to real life bullying/harassment/stalking fucking offend me. I went through both, and fuck you if you tell me they are the same thing.
The story might be different if it was cyber harassment of the type where SWAT is called to your house with a false report or detailed death threats, but that’s not in the comic. What is in the comic are insulting words.
I’d take 1000 years of cyber harassment I’ve experienced, or as depicted in this comic, over a week of what i went through in highschool.
But EVEN for my high school tormentors though, I’d think preventing them from using the internet for the rest of the life would be too much, at least my rational side would say, if not the side that becomes irrationally angry momentarily over a sudden surfacing of years old memories.
I noticed that previous commenter brought up Gregory Alan Elliot case and you didn’t even bother to address it, just dismissing him as “misogynist”.
I followed that case closely as it happened nearby
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Facts are:
Elliot, a graphic artist who sometimes volunteered to create free art for non-profits, including that of Guthrie, the woman who would sue him later.
The spat between them started when Guthrie wanted to publicly ruin the life of a man who posted Sarkeesian face punching flash game (the game maker previously made similar games with people like Jack Thompson, with none of the controversy) and Elliot disagreed, though the game is offensive, doing that against him is too far.
Then a bunch of petty twitter shit. They insulted each other, but the worst came from her part. She sicced her followers on him, she retweeted tweets accusing him of being a pedophile despite admitting later she knew they were false (in court, she said that she was not obligated to do good for him.)
None of his tweets were “threatening or harassing” according to police investigation. Much of them were replying to her accusations (such as him being a pedophile). She said it was the volume of the tweets that felt her harassed and that it didn’t matter if they were harassing, only that she FELT harassed.
His artworks in public were vandalized.
Fake twitter accounts impersonating Elliot were created to post offensive messages to false flag him, maybe by her, probably by her followers, who knows. But she knew they were fake, and they were still included in the case against Elliot, and some were mentioned at the exonerating judgement saying to the lines of “despite Elliot’s vulgar and obscene posts”, and yet she said nothing. Judge later had to issue an apology to Elliot and an addendum to his final ruling. Of course that didn’t stop all the newspapers saying “judge says defendant homophobic harasser, but charges dismissed.”
Elliot, a graphic artist, couldn’t use the internet for 3 YEARS (I’m sure you know how handy internet can be to a grahpic artist type) due to court order. He faced 6 months in jail. He had to turn to crowd funding to meet his needs.
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This is completely disproportionate response to what amounted to internet insult fight.
And I can’t help but think that this comic is a reference to that case due to the similar “punishment” involved and that the case concluded very recently, and that you think what happened to Elliot is justified, and that it’s an injustice that he was exonerated, due to all the similarities. You may not have meant it that way, but it feels like that to me, which should be important according to Guthrie.
In your comic, you have a grown woman who’s suffering nothing but some words on the internet (who is a public figure btw) ruining a college kid’s life.
Indeed there’s absolutely no element of threat or call to action against her at all.
There’s no worst elements of real life cyber harassment, such as death threats, sending over cops to your real address, calling your work.
Just words over the internet to an anonymous PUBLIC figure.
Maybe if the ban from the internet was for a week or something, or he gets zapped when he tries to make unsolicited contact with women, but forever and to all activity, that’s disproportionate.
He can’t use internet, can’t apply or work in many jobs, can’t apply or finish most types of school. Worst of all he’ll have hard time explaining why he can’t, and very few employers or schools will be inclined to make concessions for him. He’s basically fucked.
And what is disturbing is that despite you saying while you wanted superpowers to come across as disturbing, you apparently think that she was morally justified to do that, because. At worst, you think that it’s a grey area when in actuality it’s about grey as Vantablack, or the Punisher headshotting litterbugs.
As you said, you want to make a comic where crimes that don’t get punished legally get punished, a common trope in superhero comics. Well, I want whoever it is that makes their dog crap on my front yard to get punished. But if I write a story where I cut off that guy and his dog’s legs so it can’t shit on my lawn anymore, I’m not going to say the punishment was proportionate.
In the end, it’s your comic to make, and I suppose you’re free to dismiss criticism as misogyny.
If you think I’m a woman hater too, well, yeah, I guess they don’t do much for me frankly.
At least I hope for me to maintain my fragile faith in humanity, that this comic wasn’t a commentary on the Elliot case.
I was 100% unfamiliar with Gregory Elliot Allen before he was mentioned in the comments of this comic. I had never heard of the person. I’m also unfamiliar with the person who sued him. I didn’t take the time to look into it more because I’m extremely busy. This comic was 100% uninfluenced by those people or that case.
I’m glad that you’re weren’t overly bothered by the internet harassment you suffered. I find it strange that you’d be offended that other people were. For some people, it’s a huge deal. Some harassers are much more persistent than yours apparently were. Many harassment victims are not able to simply laugh it off in the way that you describe. I’m not trying to make light of your experiences at all, but I hope you recognize that different people do have different experiences, and that yours is not universal. For some people online harassment is persistent and devastating. For Mya, in this comic, I think it was very clear that it was persistent and, if not devastating, extremely aggravating and demoralizing. This kind of harassment is an attack. It serves no purpose other than to make the victims life worse. It’s inexcusable. Whether the punishment was suitable or appropriate was largely the point of the story, but I don’t think there’s any question that this kind of behavior should absolutely be punished. The victim should not have the responsibility of “just getting over it” or “growing up” as Gray suggested. This is not the victim’s fault. It’s the harasser’s fault.
Also cutting of an animal or a human’s legs is not proportionate to banning someone from posting on the internet. Seriously, what the fuck?
I also stand by my assessment that Gray’s comments were misogynist (I think it’s both obvious and evident). I’d invite you to go back and look at them again.
My point was that it’s not the harasser’s fault. Of course it’s the harasser’s fault. The point is that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.
Also I wasn’t comparing cutting off legs to banning someone from the internet.
My point is that cutting off legs so it can’t crap on my lawn anymore is a measure that stops the crime that would otherwise go unpunished (as you have stated, many superhero comics fulfill the fantasy of crimes that go unpunished), but anybody would agree that’s excessive.
Stopping a college kid from posting on the internet for the rest of his life will also stop him from making unsolicited crude remarks on celebrity’s social media, but it will also likely significantly harm him, perhaps even ruin him financially as it happened to Elliot. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see that is an excessive measure.
There are also plenty of stories where vigilantes punish crimes using excessive measures, but they also examine the moral ambiguity of the situation, or the fallout from that action, which you stated won’t touch in the comic, as apparently you think Mya was very much justified. I disagree on that, and apparently I’m not the only one.
Please don’t take this a personal way, and it’s ultimately your comic to make. I still think your comics are a blast to read.
I recognize this as a friendly argument and I appreciate the debate.
I do think that Mya’s actions were excessive (although not nearly as excessive as you do, I guess), and I do think the comic at least touches on the moral ambiguity of the actions. As I said before, the point of the story was the question of whether Mya was right or wrong. I do think that her actions are understandable, and depending on who you are and what your experiences have been, they might even be relatable. My point of contention with Gray (and not with you, unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying) was that Gray didn’t seem to have any sympathy for Mya as the victim of the harassment at all, to the point that he didn’t see it as harassment, but was super concerned about the harasser. When I asked him what he thought a suitable punishment for the harasser might be, he responded that Mya should stop using social media, stop being a super hero and wear less revealing clothing. As far as Gray was concerned, the harasser did no wrong. As I said before, I do agree that Mya’s actions were excessive, but even if you believe they were 100% too excessive they were still done as a response to and in defense against harassment. So that’s where I take umbrage with what Gray said. He tried very hard to paint the harasser as the victim of an unsolicited attack, and that’s clearly not what was happening. Mya MAY have hit back too hard (we can disagree on that, and thats fine. That’s at least partially the point of the story), but she didn’t hit first, and she hit back in self defense (and whether thats appropriate self defense is of course up to debate).
And I should note that all of that was just my interpretation of what Gray said. I don’t want to put words into his mouth. But that was how I read it.
As for the fallout of this, I do very much plan on addressing how Mya uses her powers (and this power) and the consequences of that. I don’t think I said otherwise. I don’t plan on having Mya and Admin taken to court over this matter.
This kind of harassment is a completely malicious crime. It has no justification. The harasser can’t say that they were provoked. They can’t say that they were fighting against social injustice. They can’t say that they were in a dire financial situation. There’s no excuse for harassment at all. And yet the vast, vast majority of the time it goes 100% unpunished, and usually unrecognized by anyone but the victim (police in the united states are notoriously unwilling to investigate online harassment cases, and as the case you pointed out shows, courts have no idea what to do with it. No one in that case came out well as far as I can tell). Not everyone is affected by harassment in the same way. Some people are deeply affected, while others are mostly able to ignore it, but this doesn’t excuse the crime. The harasser in this story isn’t an innocent person. He’s not someone who was just fooling around. He was shown to be someone who was harassing several different people for an extended amount of time. That’s not okay. That’s criminal activity. It is not to be excused, dismissed or trivialized. It’s debatable whether he should be punished in a way that will affect him for the rest of his life, but in many cases that’s exactly what we do to criminals. A criminal record will follow you for the rest of your life. A felony charge or a prison sentence will follow you for the rest of your life.
Yes, I do think the harasser in the comic is at fault, and should have been punished, maybe a month ban from the internet etc.
But I suppose I would disagree that idiots spouting off on the internet should be a criminal matter (talking about slurs and insults, not threats), something that should mark them for the rest of their lives.
I keep bringing up someone’s dog keep shitting on my lawn hypothetically. It’s on my mind because it’s a real thing that’s happening, I actually have a serial shitter. Yes, it’s first world problems.
Now personally, to me, someone keep shitting on my lawn is worse than any social media insults or slurs, persistent or no. Note that I’m talking about slurs and insults, not threats, which are indeed criminal in most jurisdictions.
Whoever it is, he can call me all the fucking in the world on social media, if he would just. Fucking. Stop making. His dog shit and piss. On my lawn.
I also asked my sister and a female friend, same thing, “slurs on social media or dog shit on your lawn.” They both chose the slurs.
Now, not picking up after your dog is a finable offense as far as I know, but it’s not a felony or something that follows you throughout your life.
Yet it would have bigger impact on the victims, at least for one man, and two women out of sample size of three. I might even be brave and dare say a lot of people will take slurs on social media over dog shit on their lawn.
Of course there are people who’ll take dog shit over slurs on social media. But if social media slurs are something criminal that should be punishable by a lifelong punishment, why can’t I get a serial dog shitter in jail?
If social media insults are harmful because some very vulnerable people are really affected by them, but what if I suffered from intense and crippling germophobia and dog crap caused me intense distress? (I am a bit of mild germophobe irl, enough that I would never own a pet and I try my best to avoid looking at the crap while cleaning it up as much as possible.)
Would the dog shitter deserve to go to jail then and ruined for the rest of his life? To be frank, as someone considering actually buying a security camera to catch him, I wouldn’t cry if the serial shitter went to jail. But I know rationally that would be excessive.
You know what, don’t you think the struggle against the serial shitter would make a decent comic? You can use it in your comics if you want, don’t even need to give me credit.
Interesting-looking debate. Mind if I join in?
The way I see it, the right to free speech means that you have the right to insult me. I don’t have the right to try to keep you from saying it, but I do have the right to keep myself from hearing it.
Of course, that’s just actions. Intent is also important. If you call me an idiot because you think I am an idiot, that’s fine, but if you call me an idiot because you want to hurt me, that’s a problem. I have no idea what the appropriate response is, though.
What this means is that Ghost Kiss doesn’t have enough information to decide how to respond. It also means that she’s going vigilante, which is highly genre-appropriate and gives you, the author, a chance to play with grey morality or whatever you want to call it.
I will note that I, personally, consider the insult before that one to be worse, but that could just be me being eccentric. The way I see it, the one you’re all focusing on is just calling her promiscuous, but the one before it is calling her dishonorable.
I’ll resume reading the comic now.